Posts by Doug Mason

6

New study on the Babylonian Exile, and without chronologies

by Doug Mason in

i have placed my new study into the babylonian exile at.

http://www.jwstudies.com/they_would_not_listen_version_1.pdf.

when i set out on the journey of writing this study, i was determined that i would not discuss chronologies or dating systems.

Doug Mason

I have placed my new Study into the Babylonian Exile at http://www.jwstudies.com/They_would_not_listen_Version_1.pdf

When I set out on the journey of writing this Study, I was determined that I would not discuss chronologies or dating systems. Also, even though the subject is of fundamental significance to the WTS/GB/JWs, I was not going to make them the focus nor would it be a tit-for-tat point-scoring exercise of “I’m right/You’re wrong”. Nevertheless, since it is of such importance to that group, my Study naturally would impact them in some way or other.

I wanted this to be a journey of positive discovery, and in the end I learned an awful lot. The study took me to places I had not previously considered, and it told me things I had never thought about.

In the end, I do briefly highlight the difficulties that face the WTS/GB/JW, but this is not my focus of my Study.

I discovered that understanding the Exile gives me a better understanding of their Scripture, for so much of the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) is directly affected by the Exile.

I guarantee that every reader will learn something from the Study. I have designed it so that it is a resource, rather than a portrayal of my conclusions.

Since this is a new publication, I need corrections and additional relevant information, so that I can improve this Study. But I retain the right to decide what I accept.

My email address is available on the Study. I have been interested in this activity since the mid-1960s, and I have never betrayed a confidence, so please feel comfortable sending me an email.

I do not expect prompt responses, so I shall mention it again in say a month, to stimulate any responses.

Doug

22

Daniel 9:2.... 70 years question

by digderidoo in

sorry to rehash an old topic.. in the first year of his reign, i, daniel, understood from the scriptures, according to the word of the lord given to jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of jerusalem would last seventy years.

daniel is clearly speaking of jeremiah 25, but here he speaks of the desolation of jerusalem, rather than a babylonian dominance of jeremiah.. so how does daniel fit in with a 587/6 date for the destruction of jerusalem and the dominance of the babylonian empire refered to in jeremiah?.

paul.

Doug Mason

Lars,

I fully understand your difficulty. The simple fact is that the Jews had to keep copying their scrolls because of the nature of the base material. It had a finite life. And in copying the material, the later redactors were quite prepared to amend the texts to suit their current understandings; they also added comments that later editors incorporated into the text.

The Bible is a collection of human books, where each was written by people for their own immediate community. It is important to know when a book was written, and if possible to determine their motives, and likewise with subsequent editors. Given that it is an impossible task to unscramble the omelet, caution must be exercised when drawing conclusions.

God did not write the books of the Bible; these writers were not manifestations of the divine. Only God is sacred, books are not sacred. Only God is to be worshiped and adored; not a collection of books.

That alterations were made by the Jews is well known, with plenty of evidence available. One need only look at the LXX and MT variants at Jeremiah.

Also, the manner in which the Jews treated their history is also well known, as is the reason for their actions.

The clay tablets - no, not sacred - lay in the ground untouched. So they provide an accurate record of what that group thought at the time they prepared a tablet. With so many thousands of these untouched tablets available, it is possible to recreate their contemporary scenes.

I can fully understand why these facts are uncomfortable for you.

Doug

104

Ezekiel 29:12 - Prophecy of the Desolation of Egypt for 40 years

by VM44 in

ezekiel 29:12. new international version(1984).

i will make the land of egypt desolate among devastated lands, and her cities will lie desolate forty years among ruined cities.

and i will disperse the egyptians among the nations and scatter them through the countries.. new living translation(2007).

Doug Mason

When you go to:

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-witness/TBJHOKIJBBFLP99EO/p55#lastPost

you will arrive at the "last post" of a long-running debate between Alan and Thirdwitness (and his ilk) on this very subject.

You will need to back-peddle ("prev post") to locate where the debate on that aspect commenced.

Doug

17

Changing WT wording

by KingAgag in

in the recent thread about 'millions now living may/will never die', purplesofa said that the wts changed wording on watchtowers between magazine and bound volume.

i'd be interested to see some examples please!

this could be very useful to help someone i know see they are fallible.

Doug Mason

King,

I know that the following is not exactly what you are looking for, but you might find it handy in the scheme of things:

http://www.jwstudies.com/Changed_MD_and_SS_words.pdf

Doug

22

Daniel 9:2.... 70 years question

by digderidoo in

sorry to rehash an old topic.. in the first year of his reign, i, daniel, understood from the scriptures, according to the word of the lord given to jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of jerusalem would last seventy years.

daniel is clearly speaking of jeremiah 25, but here he speaks of the desolation of jerusalem, rather than a babylonian dominance of jeremiah.. so how does daniel fit in with a 587/6 date for the destruction of jerusalem and the dominance of the babylonian empire refered to in jeremiah?.

paul.

Doug Mason

Maybe, just maybe the people who wrote the book of Daniel "took" the word that Jeremiah used for "fulfilled" and "completed" ("male") and then reapplied it to suit their own ends. Just the way they got Gabriel to reapply the 70 years to become 70 heptads.

Doug

22

Daniel 9:2.... 70 years question

by digderidoo in

sorry to rehash an old topic.. in the first year of his reign, i, daniel, understood from the scriptures, according to the word of the lord given to jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of jerusalem would last seventy years.

daniel is clearly speaking of jeremiah 25, but here he speaks of the desolation of jerusalem, rather than a babylonian dominance of jeremiah.. so how does daniel fit in with a 587/6 date for the destruction of jerusalem and the dominance of the babylonian empire refered to in jeremiah?.

paul.

Doug Mason

An alternative and probably more reasonable resolution relates to the authorship of Daniel. Nowhere does Jeremiah state that Jerusalem was to be devastated for seventy years. Jeremiah says there would be “servitude” to Babylon (25:11) for seventy years and that the Lord would allow them to return when The Seventy Years had ended (“were completed”: 29:10).

If Daniel claims that Jeremiah said Jerusalem would be devastated for 70 years, then the writers of the book of Daniel got it wrong. The mistake could have been accidental or it could have been deliberate. This would be understandable if the generally accepted date of authorship of 167-164 BCE for the book of Daniel is correct. The writers either misread Jeremiah or they wished to misrepresent it in order to influence their contemporary audience. The manipulation of history to suit a contemporary need was not uncommon at that time.

The agrarian community was not literate. Written communication was employed by the urban elite, who naturally had the scribes. So there was probably little likelihood of the farmers and their ilk checking on the veracity of what the priests told them.

The book of Daniel is mystical in nature, with dreams being interpreted, unnatural occurrences (fire not burning, lions not eating), and Daniel is not a typical prophet, in that he did not speak to the people of God. The word “understand” (biyn) at Daniel 2 implies a spiritual comprehension, which is borne out shortly afterwards when the 70 years are reinterpreted to contain a spiritual meaning of 70 heptads.

One could reason that the writers of Daniel reinterpreted Jeremiah’s 70 years to make them run down to their own time by drawing in (conflating) the “seven times” from Leviticus 26:18,21,24,28.

This action of conflation was also taken by the writer of the books of 2 Chronicles 36:21 when he pulled in Leviticus 26:31-44 because Jeremiah did not say what he wanted Jeremiah to say. The Chronicler lived at least 200 years after Babylon fell. It is not beyond possibility that these later writers wrote the 26th chapter of Leviticus at the same time.

Doug

22

Daniel 9:2.... 70 years question

by digderidoo in

sorry to rehash an old topic.. in the first year of his reign, i, daniel, understood from the scriptures, according to the word of the lord given to jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of jerusalem would last seventy years.

daniel is clearly speaking of jeremiah 25, but here he speaks of the desolation of jerusalem, rather than a babylonian dominance of jeremiah.. so how does daniel fit in with a 587/6 date for the destruction of jerusalem and the dominance of the babylonian empire refered to in jeremiah?.

paul.

Doug Mason

Maybe I need to provide a further clarification.

The "Destruction of Jerusalem" needs to be kept separate from the "Seventy Years". The destruction was conditional and could have been avoided; the 70 years of servitude to Babylon was unconditional; it was in place and it could not be avoided. The city would not have been destroyed if they had willingly served Babylon.

So Daniel 9:2 is saying that the desolation of Jerusalem would finish ("male") when "the seventy years" ended. But that does not mean they started together.

Didge, Within a week I will provide my study on the Babylonian Exile, which will provide more detailed analysis. I have some editing and proof-reading to do. Doug

22

Daniel 9:2.... 70 years question

by digderidoo in

sorry to rehash an old topic.. in the first year of his reign, i, daniel, understood from the scriptures, according to the word of the lord given to jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of jerusalem would last seventy years.

daniel is clearly speaking of jeremiah 25, but here he speaks of the desolation of jerusalem, rather than a babylonian dominance of jeremiah.. so how does daniel fit in with a 587/6 date for the destruction of jerusalem and the dominance of the babylonian empire refered to in jeremiah?.

paul.

Doug Mason

At Daniel 9:2, he says “would last seventy years”. The Hebrew word that is translated as “last” is (approximately) “male”. Daniel read this word at Jer 25:12, where it is translated as “fulfilled”, and at Jer 29:10, where it is translated as “completed”. Several online translations of Jer 29:10 show that this is the sense of that word.

When the word “male” relates to time "it refers to the completion of a particular period of time” (Mounce’s “Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words”, page 250).

Daniel thus understood that the “seventy years of desolation” had ended (“male”). His focus at Chapter 8 had been the status of the Sanctuary at Jerusalem. He now saw that the 70 years at the hand of Babylon had ended, because the Persians and Medes had been victorious.

Daniel thus saw that although the servitude to Babylon had ended, that the people were still being held in exile and the Lord had done nothing about restoring the beloved sanctuary at Jerusalem.

When Daniel read Jeremiah, he would also see that the condition for the Jews’ to return lay in them seeking the Lord (not the other way around) and confessing their sin.

So Daniel took it on himself to make that confessional prayer to the Lord. Not once in his prayer does he ask for the Seventy Years to end; what he did is to confess the national sin and to seek the Lord’s blessing on the temple at Jerusalem.

Since this was not a national confession of sin, Angel Gabriel says that while the rebuilding will take place, a further period of servitude was being placed on the nation during which they were to put an end to sin and to legalise the sanctuary. The 70 years of servitude to Babylon would be extended to 70 heptads in probationary servitude to the Lord.

Doug

13

Wasn't there some "prophecy" about a 7 year treaty?

by cameo-d in

(first of all, i don't believe this "prophecy" stuff.

i suspect much of "revelation" is actually a scripted blueprint that *they* are following to make it appear as though it's been prophesied.).

god's body is a lot like a human body; the brains of the operation are in the top of the pyramid and the bigger organizations with push are the muscles.

Doug Mason

Lars: "But in Daniel 9, the 70 weeks are divided up into 62 weeks, 1 week and 7 weeks. That's 434, 7 and 49 years, respectively."

Daniel 9 actually has the 7 heptads before the 62 heptads. That's 7 and 62, respectively, not the other way around.

I also suggest that these periods were allocated to the Exiles and to their descendants to get themselves into a right state before God, and that these periods had nothing to do with the ministry of Jesus Christ and had nothing to do with anyone subsequent to him.

And the person who put an end to sacrifice also set up an abomination at the temple.

Do I need to reproduce the words at Daniel 9 here?

Doug

13

Very "timely" WT information for my research of Hebrew and Greek Scriptures...

by EndofMysteries in

the nov 1st, 2009 page 20. .

in summary, it's not needed to understand or compare the ancient hebrew and greek to our translations.

it can be "a very difficult task", "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing", i suppose so, if finding the mistakes in the nwt.

Doug Mason

Are you serious?

Or are you being facetious, perhaps sarcastic?

Doug